Comments on: Hippolytus and December 25th, the birthday of Christ-Christmas http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/ Wed, 12 May 2010 22:42:22 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Unanimous http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-98 Unanimous Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:35:10 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-98 The only reason Hippolytus has a Wednesday December 25 and 42nd year of Augustus is because he originally thought he was 30. If he thought right away he was 33 then he would have had December 25 a Saturday 6bc and 39th year of Augustus. It is also the 15th day of the new moon. There is another insciption found later which states that it was december 25th a Friday the 14th or 15th day of the new moon. Why would they count the days after the new moon? Could they even do it? It had to be passed down to them somehow. The only reason Hippolytus has a Wednesday December 25 and 42nd year of Augustus is because he originally thought he was 30. If he thought right away he was 33 then he would have had December 25 a Saturday 6bc and 39th year of Augustus. It is also the 15th day of the new moon. There is another insciption found later which states that it was december 25th a Friday the 14th or 15th day of the new moon. Why would they count the days after the new moon? Could they even do it? It had to be passed down to them somehow.

]]> By: stephan huller http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-81 stephan huller Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:48:45 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-81 Hans, 35 AD doesn't fit with the calculation of Jewish Passovers. That's the one piece of data that can't be screwed with. The lunar cycle is beyond the power of editors to change. Hans, 35 AD doesn’t fit with the calculation of Jewish Passovers. That’s the one piece of data that can’t be screwed with. The lunar cycle is beyond the power of editors to change.

]]> By: Hans Dampf http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-80 Hans Dampf Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:12:54 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-80 Tom, the email in my posts is a working address. Tom, the email in my posts is a working address.

]]> By: stephan huller http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-78 stephan huller Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:02:35 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-78 The simplest way to solve the problem in my mind is to calculate the Passover for all years that could possibly have been the year of Jesus' Passion. I used Jack Finegan's Handbook and here's what I got: Here are the list of dates for the sunset starting the 15th of the first month of Nissan from Jack Finegan’s Handbook of reveal that only two dates from the period support this Wednesday date for the Passover and a corresponding Easter Sunday: 30 A.D. Wednesday 5th April (Easter Sunday 9th April). 31 A.D. Monday 26th March. 32 A.D. Monday 15th April. 33 A.D. Friday 3rd April. 34 A.D. Monday 23rd March 35 A.D. Monday 11th April. 36 A.D. Friday, 30th March. 37 A.D. Wednesday 21st March (Easter Sunday 25th March). 38 A.D. Monday 7th April. 39 A.D. Friday 28th March. 40 A.D. Friday 16th April. Jewish days begin at night and continue through to the next one of our days. A day that begins at sunset on Wednesday carries through to Thursday in a Roman calendar. So it is that the gospel narrative really began on Wednesday and thus we are left with only two real possibilities to choose between for the correct dating of the Passion. It is either Wednesday the 6th of April, 30 CE (the Montanists and other late sources) or Wednesday the 22nd of March, 37 CE (the date supported - in some form - by everyone else). The simplest way to solve the problem in my mind is to calculate the Passover for all years that could possibly have been the year of Jesus’ Passion. I used Jack Finegan’s Handbook and here’s what I got:

Here are the list of dates for the sunset starting the 15th of the first month of Nissan from Jack Finegan’s Handbook of reveal that only two dates from the period support this Wednesday date for the Passover and a corresponding Easter Sunday:

30 A.D. Wednesday 5th April (Easter Sunday 9th April).
31 A.D. Monday 26th March.
32 A.D. Monday 15th April.
33 A.D. Friday 3rd April.
34 A.D. Monday 23rd March
35 A.D. Monday 11th April.
36 A.D. Friday, 30th March.
37 A.D. Wednesday 21st March (Easter Sunday 25th March).
38 A.D. Monday 7th April.
39 A.D. Friday 28th March.
40 A.D. Friday 16th April.

Jewish days begin at night and continue through to the next one of our days. A day that begins at sunset on Wednesday carries through to Thursday in a Roman calendar. So it is that the gospel narrative really began on Wednesday and thus we are left with only two real possibilities to choose between for the correct dating of the Passion. It is either Wednesday the 6th of April, 30 CE (the Montanists and other late sources) or Wednesday the 22nd of March, 37 CE (the date supported – in some form – by everyone else).

]]> By: Tom http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-77 Tom Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:01:16 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-77 Part of the problem with chronology is that most every reign can be fudged a year or two in a certain direction, which makes it very hard to determine which is correct! I'll have to think about what you said here Stephan. Part of the problem with chronology is that most every reign can be fudged a year or two in a certain direction, which makes it very hard to determine which is correct! I’ll have to think about what you said here Stephan.

]]> By: stephan huller http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-76 stephan huller Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:24:20 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-76 I should also mention that ANY good book on the Samaritan Passover practices will tell you that Samaritans actually arrive on Mount Gerizim two weeks before Passover. Josephus does not say that the Samaritans were celebrating Passover only that they were on the mountain. This gives us a much better window for allowing (a) someone to announce that vessels had been rediscovered (b) Pilate to attack the Samaritans on the mountain some time during the month of Nisan BEFORE the 14th according to the Samaritan calendar (c) that in the period of time between the beginning of Nisan according to the Samaritan calendar and the Jewish Passover celebration - now a gap of up to three weeks - those things just described in Josephus occurred. I should also mention that ANY good book on the Samaritan Passover practices will tell you that Samaritans actually arrive on Mount Gerizim two weeks before Passover. Josephus does not say that the Samaritans were celebrating Passover only that they were on the mountain. This gives us a much better window for allowing (a) someone to announce that vessels had been rediscovered (b) Pilate to attack the Samaritans on the mountain some time during the month of Nisan BEFORE the 14th according to the Samaritan calendar (c) that in the period of time between the beginning of Nisan according to the Samaritan calendar and the Jewish Passover celebration – now a gap of up to three weeks – those things just described in Josephus occurred.

]]> By: stephan huller http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-75 stephan huller Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:18:50 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-75 Well let's begin by saying that 37 CE is the only year that allows for a Sunday March 25th Resurrection according to the Jewish calculation of Passover. The question of when Pilate was dismissed has been taken up by Daniel Schwartz who accepts 37 CE as a possible date for his dismissal. The gospel says that Pilate was in Jerusalem for the Passover. Josephus says that owing to the Samaritan incident, the Samaritan senate appealed to Vitellius, Vitellius sent Pilate to Rome and by the time he got there he discovered Tiberius had already died. Vitellius oversaw the end of the Festival of Unleavened Bread. The Samaritan messianic gathering must have coincided with a festival in the Samaritan liturgy. Passover is the most logical choice given the details described by Josephus. The Samaritan Passover likely came before the Jewish Passover. How much is depends on a number of factors The difference between the two festivals can have the Samaritan festival as early as a week before the Jewish festival. The ignorance of most scholars regarding the difference between the Samaritan and Jewish services has led them to suppose that the disturbance which led to Pilate's dismissal was the Feast of the Tabernacles. I have always wondered how these people imagine Pilate could have traveled from Palestine (October 36 AD) to Rome and arrive only after Tiberius' death (mid March 37 AD). He must have been travelling by donkey through Asia Minor! To this end, I think it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that the Samaritan incident happened BEFORE the Jewish Passover - perhaps a week before, Pilate continued to oversee the events described in the gospel all the while the Samaritan senate made its appeal to Vitellius. Some time after the crucifixion but before the seventh day of Passover Pilate was sent to Rome and Vitellius came to Jerusalem to oversee the close of the holiday. My reconstruction supposes that the Testimonium Flavianum was added to the text. I believe that the Passion was a real historical event but that a later Christian editor added the existing reference to make Josephus' witness accord with traditional dating of the event. The critical passage from Antiquities is: ... and others of them [the Samaritans] they put to flight, and took a great many alive, the principal of which, and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain. But when this tumult was appeased, the Samaritan senate sent an embassy to Vitellius, a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria, and accused Pilate of the murder of those that were killed; for that they did not go to Tirathaba in order to revolt from the Romans, but to escape the violence of Pilate. So Vitellius sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea, and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome, and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius, which he durst not contradict; but before he could get to Rome Tiberius was dead. But Vitellius came into Judea, and went up to Jerusalem; it was at the time of that festival which is called the Passover. Vitellius was there magnificently received ... [Ant. xviii.1-3] Well let’s begin by saying that 37 CE is the only year that allows for a Sunday March 25th Resurrection according to the Jewish calculation of Passover. The question of when Pilate was dismissed has been taken up by Daniel Schwartz who accepts 37 CE as a possible date for his dismissal. The gospel says that Pilate was in Jerusalem for the Passover. Josephus says that owing to the Samaritan incident, the Samaritan senate appealed to Vitellius, Vitellius sent Pilate to Rome and by the time he got there he discovered Tiberius had already died. Vitellius oversaw the end of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

The Samaritan messianic gathering must have coincided with a festival in the Samaritan liturgy. Passover is the most logical choice given the details described by Josephus. The Samaritan Passover likely came before the Jewish Passover. How much is depends on a number of factors The difference between the two festivals can have the Samaritan festival as early as a week before the Jewish festival.

The ignorance of most scholars regarding the difference between the Samaritan and Jewish services has led them to suppose that the disturbance which led to Pilate’s dismissal was the Feast of the Tabernacles. I have always wondered how these people imagine Pilate could have traveled from Palestine (October 36 AD) to Rome and arrive only after Tiberius’ death (mid March 37 AD). He must have been travelling by donkey through Asia Minor!

To this end, I think it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that the Samaritan incident happened BEFORE the Jewish Passover – perhaps a week before, Pilate continued to oversee the events described in the gospel all the while the Samaritan senate made its appeal to Vitellius. Some time after the crucifixion but before the seventh day of Passover Pilate was sent to Rome and Vitellius came to Jerusalem to oversee the close of the holiday.

My reconstruction supposes that the Testimonium Flavianum was added to the text. I believe that the Passion was a real historical event but that a later Christian editor added the existing reference to make Josephus’ witness accord with traditional dating of the event.

The critical passage from Antiquities is:

… and others of them [the Samaritans] they put to flight, and took a great many alive, the principal of which, and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain.

But when this tumult was appeased, the Samaritan senate sent an embassy to Vitellius, a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria, and accused Pilate of the murder of those that were killed; for that they did not go to Tirathaba in order to revolt from the Romans, but to escape the violence of Pilate. So Vitellius sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea, and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome, and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius, which he durst not contradict; but before he could get to Rome Tiberius was dead.

But Vitellius came into Judea, and went up to Jerusalem; it was at the time of that festival which is called the Passover. Vitellius was there magnificently received … [Ant. xviii.1-3]

]]> By: Tom http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-74 Tom Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:17:50 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-74 Oh yes thank you peter, I was thinking it was a series of books. Oh yes thank you peter, I was thinking it was a series of books.

]]> By: Peter http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-73 Peter Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:58:11 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-73 Tom, CCEL -> ccel.org Tom,

CCEL -> ccel.org

]]> By: Tom http://www.chronicon.net/blog/hippolytus/hippolytus-and-december-25th-the-birthday-of-christ/comment-page-1/#comment-72 Tom Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:52:11 +0000 http://www.chronicon.net/blog/?p=452#comment-72 Very interesting Stephen, but 37CE? Didn't Pilate leave office in 36? Very interesting Stephen, but 37CE? Didn’t Pilate leave office in 36?

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